Cleveland Sports Forum

MtFn: twice I have written lengthy responses as to why I dislike Grant's approach, but twice they haven't posted. If I get time, i will try a final time to see if I can better express my reasons why I dislike the approach.

MtFan:

No doubt I have had my rants about Grant, but perhaps a bit of my reasons might demonstrate they weren’t straight from the hip.

I love the team idea of going to tough minded, team oriented players. But without stars (See Duncan), those types of team don’t win either. Maybe Kyrie gets there, but surely don’t see TT ever in that range. So why am I against Grant:

1. Dislike-hate the TT selection: He can’t shoot free throws or in general. He will be a major liability if in the game at the end. He will draw fouls because no one will give him a dunk because he isn’t likely to make two shots. He is on the short side for a PF, so I think he can be moved in the block. We had and will continue to have a long tem hole at C. PF are much easier to fill than centers. JV was available and projects well as a tough minded, center, who also shoots 90% from the field. [His U-19 world stats show he has an offensive game too] Since we are likely to lose a good chunk of this season, a delay in JV coming over isn’t bad and splits up contract renewals.
2. If TT was so needed, I believed we could have unloaded either Andy, JJ, the TPE or some combination thereof and secured the Toronto pick to get TT. Do I know that …no, of course not. But that would have been a gross overpay for the pick. If all combined, perhaps it would have even netted Derek Williams. Regardless, we would have had KI, TT and JV under that scenario.
3. Next year’s draft is loaded with forwards. That neutralizes the need for TT and mitigates the need for Casspi.
4. My initial rant about Grant tied to some misinformation about the non-lottery pick. At least at this point, I do believe we are likely to get a 1st rounder. Anyway, I am a fan of Casspi and like him. My issue was the 2012 draft has lots of great SF which we may take on a BPA approach , the fact that we ultimately drop to a second rounder rather than basically hold out till we get a 1st round pick even if it is years out. JJ’s salary issue is a non-issue as it waits until the CBA agreement is in place and, because if few teams wanted him now, why should we believe anyone would break the bank when JJ is a RFA.
5. No. 32. trade. If 2nd round picks mean so little why 2 late picks. Hard to believe we couldn’t find a need for late picks or that we couldn’t combine the TPE with 32 and/or 54 to move up 10 slots to get someone we wanted.
6. In the end, I thought we had a clear chance to build ever single position out of the next two years draft. Now I don’t see any realistic chance of C being available next year, and even if there was, there are a lot of marquee players that the Cavs may not be able to pass by. And if we make the playoffs which might happen ina short season, we don’t even get a top 10 player. We would have virtually been assured of a top 10 pick with 3 rookies, and one being left in Europe for the season.
7. Bottom line, I find it a far more exciting future to have KI and JV available, and with a trade for TT or DW at any cost, than having KI, TT, Andy and Caspi. That lineup spells 10-15 years of success, the current one has potentially 2 bench players in it.

I'm telling ya, Jay Jay, think Bab Boy Pistons. I really think Gilbert is trying to build a team like that. He hopes Thompson is his Rodman.

You know what Rodman's career FT % was? ... 58% ... And he won like 5 NBA Titles. He apparently wasn't killing his team late in games.

Thompson just needs to play great defense, work the boards hard, get us some second chance points, and get the other team in foul trouble. He's not going to be counted on to score.

I think all of Jayjay's points are valid ones. But by no means do I think it's a lock that those concerns are going to prove to be true, or that the exact opposite might not turn out to be the reality.

It's just as likely that JV will be too light in the ass to play effectively in the paint in the NBA. When he goes against an offensive player with low post moves JV commits fouls at a troubling rate, and that has cost him minutes. To me that indicates that he doesn't move his feet on defense, doesn't contest shots by jumping straight up, and reaches in too much.

Those exact skills sets are areas where TT is very strong. The word is that he dominated Kanter in head to head workouts, and that's what impressed Grant and Scott enough to put him high on their list.

I have to trust that Grant and Scott met with these guys and got to know them close up and personal. If their gut instinct was that they wanted TT then I have to let it play out and see how it turns out before I condemn them for their choice.

I have to believe Grant is giving Scott the players he wants to run his system, and if anything it will be Scott under the microscope to see what kind of team he can put on the floor with his preferred players in this draft.

I was in favor of drafting JV, strictly based on what I read about his game.

The one thing about him is how many years it will be before he is an effective NBA player, much less a force in the league.

Yes, I'm giving the Cavs the benefit of the doubt with the drafting of TT. His skills should translate well at the pro level and his work ethic should allow him to develop into a decent shooter. I do think he has the type of assets that translate well to a good team. A star? No one knows, but I'll take a guy on my team every day who gets rebounds, plays defense and hustles.

Same with Casspi, who could turn into a nice trade asset down the road.

Cavs need plenty of pieces, including filling the huge void of players with a reliable offensive game.

I understand the frustration with the current personnel, but was there really a potential star player(at least from experts consensus) past Irving and DW?

Under any good scenario, Cavs will need another healthy dose of good mojo in landing a prime lottery pick for the next draft.

John in Boston:

Omri Casspi couldn't get playing time in Sacramento (a 24 win team last year). Now all of a sudden he's a building block for the Cavs. If you were the GM of the Cavs, would you have made this same move. Why or why not?

Eric Pincus:

If the Cavaliers turned down the chance to land Amar'e Stoudemire because they wanted to hold onto Hickson and now all they get is Casspi, that's not good.

I do think Omri has more to offer than what we saw in Sacramento and J.J. didn't progress as well as the Cavs had hoped.

I don't love it frankly for Cleveland but it's done and Casspi can play.


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Hillbilly: If TT became Rodman (a HOF) I am not going to argue. But keep in mind his Chicago stats were 6.0 points oer game, and 15+ rebounds. That would be a pretty miserable scoring average. More to the point though, Rodman only shot an average of a 100 FTs an "entire" NBA season when with Chicago...not nearly the sample size (and the misses) we will get from TT. And, of course, Rodman played with MJ so there was little need to score and certainly no need to handle the ball at the end of the game. Can't say the same is expected of TT. And I guess finally, Rodman didn't come at the cost of a #4 pick.

I guess in the end I was all excited about the prospect of 3 new stars to build around, with the two most important spots, PG and C filled. Now we will be searching until a C falls in our lap down the road because I sure hope it isn't next year with all those scoring Fs out there.

Posted below is the reason I was dead set against TT when a Center was available. Yes, TT can play with one of next year's picks but then what of Casspi (and when do we get a center). Forwards galore next year and the article doesn't even touch Perry Jones or Terrence Jones. Austin Rivers is out there too and he is the one guard I am aware of as jumping out as a top 10 prospect. Sure hope we bomb next year and sure hope Sac makes the playoffs in what looks to be a draft that rivals 2003.

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A look at five top 2012 NBA Draft picks and where they might fit best in the NBA. Posted by Ben Golliver.

A confluence of factors made the 2011 NBA Draft one to forget. The one-and-done class was weak to begin with; there were only 3-4 players selected who are believed to possess eventual All-Star talent; the impending NBA lockout scared many top players into returning to school; there wasn’t an American-born center taken in the first round; two of the most talented international players (Enes Kanter and Bismack Biyombo) had very short resumes and another, Jonas Valanciunas, had a tricky contract buyout. On and on the list goes.

In that light, the 2011 NBA Draft was about assessing risk for bad teams. Which incomplete player fits best with our pieces? Which of these diamonds in the rough might pan out in the right circumstances?

The 2012 Draft couldn't be more different. Yes, we're 11 months away, but it's setting up as an evaluating of rewards rather than riches thanks to a crop that should be in the running for best class since 2003 brought LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony and company. Considering that the NBA's lockout is now officially underway, the 2012 class serves as the perfect light at the end of the tunnel.

At first glance, there are arguably 10 prospects who could have been top five talents in this year’s draft. Why? Because the one-and-dones that stayed put – big-name stars like Harrison Barnes and Jared Sullinger – will converge with a very strong high school Class of 2011 – topped by Anthony Davis, James McAdoo, Michael Gilchrist, Austin Rivers and others.

Here’s an early look at five top prospects and where their impact would be greatest.

1. Harrison Barnes | Sophomore | UNC | SF | 6-foot-8, 210 pounds

Barnes should headline the 2012 NBA Draft class and is the early favorite to go No. 1 overall. Despite falling short of preseason All-American expectations and starting slow as a freshman, Barnes came on strong over the second half of the season, averaging 21.3 points and 6.3 rebounds in March. He has all the tools to be an NBA All-Star and an elite scorer. He’s polished, smooth, has a pretty stroke, good size and a scorer’s self-confidence. After he gets a second season under his belt, Barnes should be ready to start from Day 1 and step in as a No. 1 scoring option from the get-go in 2012-2013. He understands the marketing side of the modern game and projects to be a franchise building block.

Best fit: If the Toronto Raptors and Charlotte Bobcats are as bad as everyone expects them to be next season, Barnes serves as the potential savior.

2. Jared Sullinger| Sophomore | Ohio State | PF | 6-foot-8, 250 pounds

The No. 2 spot in next year’s draft is Sullinger’s to lose, although he’ll certainly have his share of challengers. A traditional low-post power forward, Sullinger shed questions about his weight to become the best freshman in the nation last season, averaging 17.2 points and 10.2 rebounds per game. Sullinger is strong and relentless, overpowering older players at the college level. Physically, he’s a throwback in this age of combo fours and he would be the consensus No. 1 pick next year if he were an inch or two taller and a few inches longer so that he could more comfortably play center. His productivity on the glass – and the offensive efficiency that goes with it -- is his top selling point. The biggest concern: Will he be subject to mismatches on the defensive end (too short to guard fives, too big to stay with combo fours on the perimeter)?

Best fit: Pair him with a lengthy shot-blocker. The Washington Wizards – with JaVale McGee -- or the Detroit Pistons – with Greg Monroe -- would allow Sullinger to do what he does best.

3. Anthony Davis | Freshman | Kentucky | PF | 6-foot-10, 220 pounds

The best word to describe Davis is “tantalizing.” At this point, despite a solid showing on the All-Star circuit, Davis is regarded more for his potential than his current ability. That’s to be expected given a well-documented growth spurt that has made him the most hyped American big man prospect since Greg Oden. While Davis is much skinnier and less overwhelming than Oden, he is significantly more mobile. He's also extremely long and active around the basket on both ends. Kentucky is an ideal situation for him to develop: surrounded by future pros and not asked to do too much, Davis should have an excellent chance to make a big impact games during March Madness, even if he isn’t putting up overwhelming stat lines. There isn’t a team in the NBA that wouldn’t take him today based on the rarity of his physical package. If he continues to develop his strength and size, he has a very good shot to go No. 1 overall, even if he’s riskier right now than Barnes or Sullinger.

Best fit: Pairing Davis with a wide body, low-post presence would be his best-case scenario: Minnesota, next to Kevin Love, or Sacramento, alongside DeMarcus Cousins.

4. James McAdoo | Freshman | UNC | PF | 6-foot-8, 223 pounds

McAdoo is a supremely talented, although sometimes overlooked, combo forward who will likely play four as a pro. His skill level, comfort with the ball in his hands, nose for rebounds, ability to finish and general intelligence make him a can’t-miss prospect. A (very) distant relative of NBA Hall of Famer Bob McAdoo, he raised his profile on the All-Star circuit and declared at the Nike Hoop Summit that he was ready to average 20 points and 10 rebounds as a freshman at Carolina, a feat that would be unprecedented. With UNC returning so much talent, he’s in line for an adjustment of expectations but there’s no question that he was born to play basketball at the NBA level.

Best fit: The Cleveland Cavaliers didn’t get the talented combo forward they desired in Derrick Williams in 2011. McAdoo would make a nice consolation prize. Pending a decision on Kris Humphries and a rumored free agency pursuit of David West, McAdoo would fit nicely next to Brook Lopez in New Jersey too.

5. Michael Gilchrist | Freshman | Kentucky | 6-foot-7, 205 pounds

NBA teams haven’t exactly shown a desire to reward elite wing defenders with top draft selections, but Gilchrist deserves it. He really redefines “motor” and “intensity,” making full use of his ideal wing size. He enjoys playing chest-to-chest defense but is comfortable off the ball as well, equally capable of taking a No. 1 scoring option out of the game or breaking plays from the weakside and finishing in transition. Other than an ugly release on his jumper, Gilchrist is a solid offensive prospect too, able to score and make plays, and fully comfortable with the ball in his hands.

Best fit: Any team in need of an intensity injection. The Raptors, Wizards, Bobcats and Los Angeles Clippers all qualify.

All height and weight figures courtesy of DraftExpress.com.

JJ,

Casspi will probably end up being a rotational player, 6th man type on a good team when it's all said and done. Every team needs those guys. Nothing that will stop us from drafting a SF next year unless Casspi blows people away. More likely he'll just be a solid player and still a valuable piece.

The market wasn't all that hot for Hickson.

As far as the center goes I'm getting the feeling the Cavs like Erden better than JV and that's one reason they went with TT. They also have the center from Kansas stashed in the Euro league, for all we know maybe the Cavs like him better than JV. And AV can play quality minutes as a center.

None of these guys available in the draft figured to end up being the young elite center you're looking for. Kanter and JV are both pretty iffy, with high bust potential. If Kanter couldn't score against TT and he's better offensively than JV, maybe neither one was considered a building block by the Cavs?

Seems to me the plan was to move Hickson all along.

Therefore, the selection of TT was a welcome one for them.

And assuming this roster is a finished product is way premature and likely well off base.

Enjoying the conversation. Good stuff. Andy V is better then anyone in this draft (2011) not named Kyrie. Hickson was gone one way or another after this season.

The Cavs desperately wanted Casspi. The Spurs were offering George Hill or Kawhi Leonard for Casspi. (Kings wanted Tony Parker. The Spurs wanted #7 pick and Casspi for Parker. Just like the Cavs also asked for Hickson before the draft.) The Spurs wanted Casspi just as bad as the Cavs. Luckily the Kings wanted Hickson but they had the spurs as a back up and the Cavs knew it. Both teams have been trying to get Casspi since he was drafted.

Three things the Cavs wanted from Hickson. 1. Hickson gone. 2. Acquire Casspi. 3. Get a future first round pick.

Any writer that talks about Hickson for Stoudemire should be immediately discounted for lack of knowledge. Never happened.

The Cavs plan on being active in free agency. Grant said he did not draft a player at #32 because he he had other ways to fill that roster spot. Let's see what happens.

Cavs certainly need a big.

TT might turn out to be a perfect compliment to Andy. I can envision enjoying watching 2 Cav big guys play with desire almost full time and not disappear and put up meaningless numbers . Of course there is a need for scorers, but you can't win without the ball and stopping the other team.

I love guys with good motors and skills, even if the skills aren't a complete game type player. Just how many of those players are there anyway?

Hickson has always reminded me of Gooden- decent numbers, poor hands, little basketball savvy and inconsistent. I don't doubt other clubs asked about him, but no way you could net Casspi and a lottery pick for him. If the Cavs made a similar deal to acquire him, we'd all be screaming murder. Hickson's motor is like one of those shyster used car dealers who put sawdust in the transmission so the ride is solid until after you pay good money for it.

On Casspi- Spurs are usually pretty good picking up under the radar role players so that's another point in his favor.

While I haven't seen Casspi often, I always liked his hustle and believe he will be a solid addition. What i like about him and the other draftees is I can see them willing to stay long term...Honestly, I am not critical of these players from a talent standpoint, save the FT shooting. But skipping on a center was really unwise. JV is reputed to be a solid teammate, with excellent effort, and hard nosed and has a scoring touch. So, for all the plusses TT gets for his effort, it doesn't differentiate him from JV. JV though can flat out shoot and is at a more important position. If you take a peak at the World U-19 games you will see just how devastating he projects to be....it's painful to see his stats even if the competition is weak

I liken TT to drafting a first baseman, and JV to drafting either the SS or P. First basemen can be found, a high quality SS or P you would die for.

In the end, I will look at this draft as a lost opportunity. With an aggressive trade we could have secured TT along with JV and KI...then the fun would start. Plus we wait for JV for a year which wuld really help get a high end draft pick.

On the possible 2011 addition, regardless of Grant's statement, I frankly doubt they would add any quality FAs this year and not sure I want them anyway with the talent in next year's draft. Only way a high ender will come here is due to salary limits imposed by CBA and we don't seem to be in great shape for that. I do think Byron Davis is going to be released when the amnesty clause kicks in so i guess that could free up room.

My best hope for an acquisition is Courtney Lee or perhaps OJMayo. Both are young, talented off guards who have scoring ability. Each has good size. I do fear a deaprture of OJ in short order whereas I think Lee has moved enough and wants a home. Not sure what it would take to trade for them, but if our TPE survives the lockout perhaps getting one is realistic.

JV had a monster game vs Poland last night: 26 points, 24 rebounds and 5 blocks in 32 minutes.

JJ: Your draft scenario would have worked for me but we aren't Grant, Gilbert or Scott!