Cleveland Sports Forum

Another story from AZ begins:

"I don't think I've seen the trade of a pitcher with a major-league ERA over six result in the formation of such a large mob with pitchforks."


16 major league innings and an ERA of anything is irrelevant. Let's just hope that Bauer and Marson and Santana can have a meeting of the minds and then he'll be ready to do his highly talented job for the Tribe without controversy

From a Cincy perspective:


Analysis: Trade for Shin-Soo Choo a very smooth short-term move by Cincinnati Reds


By: PJ O'Keefe, paul.okeefe@wcpo.com

CINCINNATI - Goodbye, Drew. Hello, Choo.

Just when the lead-off hitter market in the majors was getting slim, Cincinnati Reds general manager Walt Jocketty worked his MLB magic again to acquire Cleveland Indians center fielder Shin-Soo Choo to fill the only hole in the Reds' lineup in a nine-player, three-team trade.

While it might take Reds fans a while to get his name down, it won't take Choo long to get acclimated as the team's new leadoff hitter.

But before fans start washing their hands of Drew Stubbs and claiming "good riddance," don't forget what good home-grown talent Stubbs was and some of the great things he helped the Reds accomplish over the past three years, including two NL Central titles.

....

Okay, that's enough time remembering Stubbs.

To the future: Who is Shin-Soo Choo? A perfect fit for the Reds to have in the No. 1 spot in the lineup. At least for next year.

The Pros of the Trade

Choo has a good eye at the plate and a higher career on-base percentage (.381) than anyone on the Cincinnati roster, with the exception of Joey Votto. That makes him ripe to set the table for the power-heavy Reds middle-lineup.

Choo also has some pop in his bat (16 HR last year and a career .465 slugging percentage), and the move from Progressive Field in Cleveland (a longer ballpark with higher walls) to Great American Ball Park will only see his home run and extra-base hit numbers rise.

He also possesses just the right amount of speed to cover ground in center field and to keep pitchers checking on him (21 stolen bases last year). Choo won't hold a candle to what Stubbs could do on the base-path, but the Reds have proven their ability to win games without a huge stolen base threat. On the flip-side, Choo will be able to get hustle runs going from first-to-third and ensuring RBI singles when he is on second just as well as Stubbs would, which was the Reds' bread and butter last year. Thinking long-term, Billy Hamilton (who set the minor league record for stolen bases in a year at AA last year) will eventually sport a Reds uniform, and will be able to step in when the team needs a late-game stolen base.

The Cons of the Deal

The Reds did lose Didi Gregorious in the trade, a home-grown Reds prospect who has been described as a "young Derek Jeter." He was a great utility asset and losing him is definitely a blow to the Reds' prospect list of hitting infielders, but with the Reds strong, young infield, he wasn't likely to see significant playing time in the near future at the major league level anyway.

Choo's contract expires this year, and that could potentially lead to a short-lived solution for the Reds. He made just under $5 million last year, and will likely be looking for more if he is to continue to be the chief lead-off man in Cincinnati, especially at 30 years of age. The Reds have a lot of long-term contracts on their books in the next few years, and re-signing Choo for anything longer than a year or two for anything more than $5 million a year will get taxing on the team's financial flexibility.

Usually players excel on the field in a contract year, but Choo has had attitude problems off-the-field in the past; specifically he requested to get out of Cleveland. If he brings even a little bit of that to the Reds' clubhouse, it could disrupt the very fluent team chemistry the Reds possess. Choo was also recently arrested on a DUI charge in May 2011. Off-the-field distractions have been kept to a minimum in Cincinnati (at least in the baseball realm of things), save for Mike Leake's T-shirt incident, which was really more comical than distracting, and the Reds have ridden their on-the-field focus to success. This team has been good in the past few years because of that chemistry and willingness to play for their fellow man, and the Reds wouldn't want to see that change, especially riding such an emotional low from 2012's finish.

The Tipping Points

No Reds fan was doubting Chris Heisey's ability to take over full time in center field, but trading for Choo not only gives the Redlegs a prototypical lead-off man, but also great depth in the outfield. Having Heisey in the back pocket in case of injuries or needed rest doesn't set the team back at all from the starting three.

Choo is a left-handed hitter, which the Reds desperately needed in the lineup other than Votto and Bruce. Hitting from that side of the plate not only gives the Reds a better variance and advantage against any given pitcher, but being able to mix in the right-handed Heisey when Dusty Baker thinks Choo's pull-hitting style might struggle against left-handed pitchers covers the Reds through all 162 games.

But baseball will always come back to the cliché of staying healthy, and Choo has had his share of problems staying 100 percent. His 2011 was cut short by a thumb fracture and back problems, and prior to that he had Tommy John surgery in 2007. If he gets hurt at any point this season, that may be the catalyst for the Reds to see another Ryan Madson situation play out where the team would have paid for Choo to get treatment from the medical staff without striking a longer-term deal, putting the leadoff situation right back to square one.

Bottom line: A healthy Choo = A Reds October.

Reds fans should be excited this deal was made, at least for 2013.

And in addition to the "Bruuuuuce" and "Woooooo!" chants at GABP, welcome in the new chant "Chooooooo!" I think that's a record for most "oooo" sounds per lineup in the MLB...

MLB.com had Bauer as No. 8 Prospect in baseball, No. 3 RHP. Lindor is their No. 2 SS and No. 13 Prospect overall. Gregorius isn't on their Top 100 at all. It looks like the Dbacks are trying an Indians-style "we know better than everyone else" talent evaluation approach.

The more I read about Bauer, the more I think of Brandon Phillips......Big time talent....won't listen to anybody but his own pitching gurus.

Let's see if Francona and Callaway do better than Wedge.

Something called Scouting Book.com rates Bauer No. 4 Prospect in baseball

The fourth overall pick in the draft, righthander Trevor Bauer was overshadowed by rotation mate Gerrit Cole while at UCLA, but after turning pro he became one of the most impressive young arms anywhere in the minors, and he's as hot a ticket in our book as Cole is today.

Bauer is a smallish pitcher, with a bit of an unconventional motion, but his quirks are not the flaky flamethrower type, they're more of a dazzling bag-of-tricks variety. While he can reach 100mph if he wishes (we promise), he doesn't actually pitch there, preferring to stay down around 94mph with great and varying movement on his selection of sliders and cutters. He's also got a good head for the game and shows an Ichiro-level commitment to stretching and conditioning exercise. Acquired as the main return for Shin Soo Choo in a threeway trade via Cincinnati, t's possible Bauer will break camp with the Indians, but his real prime time won't be until midseason or even 2014.

Bauer is a smallish pitcher, with a bit of an unconventional motion,

That's what we said about Lincecum.

If Bauer is 1/2 as good as Lincecum I'll be satisfied.

Don't mean to throw water on the fire, but I'm learning to take these trades with a grain of salt.

Like every spring, hope springs eternal. Everyone thinks they have a chance of ending up in the world series when reality sets in at about June.

Let's face it, no one thinks they've made a bad trade. I think back to Boston last year. Their deals were supposed to place them over the top. They ended up losing 90+ and were mired in last place.

Sabathia netted LaPorta who was supposed to be our future superstar.

Lee goes to Philadelphia and we trade for our future (again!). These players included shortstop Jason Donald, starting pitchers Carlos Carrasco and Jason Knapp, and catcher Lou Marson. These four players were meant to be cornerstones of the Indians for years to come.

Excuse me for the skepticism but to me this is Cleveland Indian baseball as seen through the eyes of a long time (nearly 50 year) die hard Indian fan.

I need more than what's written in black and white. I think results would be nice for a change.

seagull wrote:The more I read about Bauer, the more I think of Brandon Phillips......Big time talent....won't listen to anybody but his own pitching gurus.

Let's see if Francona and Callaway do better than Wedge.

Thank god we dont have a dumbbell like Wedge here anymore. T

seagull wrote:The more I read about Bauer, the more I think of Brandon Phillips......Big time talent....won't listen to anybody but his own pitching gurus.

Let's see if Francona and Callaway do better than Wedge.

Best-case scenario here is that the D-Backs frustration with Bauer spurred them into doing something totally irrational, which is pretty much what happened with Phillips.

joez wrote:Don't mean to throw water on the fire, but I'm learning to take these trades with a grain of salt.

Like every spring, hope springs eternal. Everyone thinks they have a chance of ending up in the world series when reality sets in at about June.

Let's face it, no one thinks they've made a bad trade. I think back to Boston last year. Their deals were supposed to place them over the top. They ended up losing 90+ and were mired in last place.

Sabathia netted LaPorta who was supposed to be our future superstar.

Lee goes to Philadelphia and we trade for our future (again!). These players included shortstop Jason Donald, starting pitchers Carlos Carrasco and Jason Knapp, and catcher Lou Marson. These four players were meant to be cornerstones of the Indians for years to come.

Excuse me for the skepticism but to me this is Cleveland Indian baseball as seen through the eyes of a long time (nearly 50 year) die hard Indian fan.

I need more than what's written in black and white. I think results would be nice for a change.

It makes sense to take it with a grain of salt. But the hardest thing to do for a baseball organization is finding a pitching ace, and Bauer gives us a shot at having one (and he can still be a valuable player even if he doesn't quite become an ace).

Compared to the Lee trade, which I hated at the time, we're giving up

* Someone who is less valuable than Lee
* Someone under our control for just one more season, which is less than was the case with Lee

and we're receiving

* A "key piece" who is on the cusp of the major leagues instead of being a teenage injury risk in the low minors

* Three other current major league players of varying skill levels, compared with the minor-league grab bag we've become used to (question: even if you count Bauer as being in AAA despite his cup of coffee in Arizona late last season, when was the last time the Indians acquired 3 current major league players in the same trade?)

So it's a risk well worth taking. Even if Choo has a monster year and/or Bauer isn't ready yet or flames out, what did we really lose? The Indians were terrible a season ago.

I like the trade.

I like the fact that Bauer is a cerebral kid who has used his own body as a guinea pig for his theories about throwing.

We've all lamented about modern pitching being too fragile. This kid is a throwback to Bob Feller and other old time pitchers who could seemingly go out and pitch almost every day if they had to.

I don't know if it will work out but it's worth a try. Does anyone think the current model for handling the arms of MLB pitchers is working? I don't.

Could anyone imagine Bauer working with Wedge? Francona must have already passed on his willingness to let Bauer stick to his own program.

pat graham wrote: I'm sure the $3.5 we threw in was from the Matt Williams deal.

Ha! good to see this old chestnut is still floating around.

Charlie hit it right on:

We really have nothing to lose in this deal other than 1 year of Choo.

Everything I've read noted that while Asdrubal is a very tradeable commodity, Choo would not be able to bring a big payoff. I think Antonetti got much more than the market price for Choo.

Maybe the trade of Choo will work out as well as the trade for Choo. (Eduardo Perez even up!)

National baseball writers weigh in on the Indians’ trade


The Indians’ three-team, nine-player trade was the biggest news in the baseball world on Tuesday night, as the Tribe acquired young right-handed starting pitcher Trevor Bauer, and relievers Matt Albers and Bryan Shaw from the Arizona Diamondbacks, as well as outfielder Drew Stubbs from the Cincinnati Reds.

The Reds acquired Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald from the Indians in return, and sent young shortstop Didi Gregorious to the Diamonbacks, who also received Tony Sipp and Lars Anderson from the Indians. After news of the trade broke, many prominent national baseball journalists weighed in on the potential impact of the trade. A selection of their tweets and stories are below:

Jon Heyman ‏@JonHeymanCBS

love the #indians part of this deal. bauer and stubbs. great job.

Jerry Crasnick ‏@jcrasnick

I’m with @keithlaw: Really liked what #indians did in trade. Thought #reds did well to get Choo.

keithlaw ‏@keithlaw

Love it. “@Buster_ESPN: The Indians are going to get Bauer in the deal with the Diamondbacks.”

‏Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN

The Indians need arms. And they get a good arm in Trevor Bauer, who was the No. 3 overall pick in 2011.

Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN

It really is amazing that the Indians ended up with Trevor Bauer essentially in return for a one-year rental, Shin-Soo Choo.

Chris Rose ‏@ChrisRose

Cleveland fan overload right now. @indians huge trade w @Reds @dbacks and @cavs up late @lakers. Head about to explode!!

Rob Neyer – SBNation

“Each of the three clubs is receiving one linchipin. The Indians: pitching prospect Trevor Bauer. The Reds: star outfielder Shin-Soo Choo. The Diamondbacks: shortstop prospect Didi Gregorius.”

“It’s a fascinating deal, because all three of the linchpins are completely different sorts of players…The Indians need arms, and Bauer’s a great start.”

civ ollilavad wrote:Could anyone imagine Bauer working with Wedge? Francona must have already passed on his willingness to let Bauer stick to his own program.

Lessons learned. Tim Lincecum's father who basically taught Tim how to pitch made it clear that the Giants should take a hands off approach with changing any of Tim's mechanics.