Cleveland Sports Forum

Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame inductees

St Louis Hawks only had 2 inductees on those 50's teams that I remember. Bob Pettit and Cliff Hagan. Alex Hanum was the coach. Father in law of Billy Cunningham if I remember right. Alex went on to coach the 76ers with Wilt and Hal Greer.

HB - I have no problem with your case for Lebron over MJ.

And really guys in similar (closer) generations have to be easier to compare than the freaking 60s - lol!!

I agree that Russell was a man among boys in his day and of course so was Wilt.

I also agree that in general titles are not great ways to evaluate players - but 11 in 13 years does have to be looked at.

Russell as a big man with that kind of agility (and intelligence, of course he also coached his last couple) was so unique back in those days. Athletes have progressed/evolved a great deal since then. In addition they have the advantage of having modern day data and personal trainers etc to help chisel their bodies.

And of course that's what makes it so hard to compare 60s to now - athletes are miles apart. Actually saying if he played in modern day he'd be Karl Malone'ish is quite the compliment. Because he played then in reality.

I am not claiming he's GOAT over Lebron or anyone. Just amazed at what he did when he did it. And staking his claim to the conversation. Certainly has a claim to starting 5. And to me the greatest of the 60s.

I remember Bob Petit was a top player on the late 50s Hawks. Looking him up 11 time All Star. 2 time MVP.
His "similarity scores" are closest in order to:
Barkley, Schayes, Bird, Duncan and Erving.

Other names I remember on the Hawks might have along a little later:
Zelmo Beatty, Lonnie Wilkins, someone Bridges, Lou Hudson.
[the first three were his teammates by the last few years]
They were a very good team.

The Hudson group was a little later in the 60's.

Pettit was the Larry Bird of the 50's.

OK, so I've never heard of any of those guys.

I can tell you who George Mikan is. Elgin Baylor. Wilt. Cousy, Heinsohn, Russell, Havlichek, who stole the ball. Hell, I can even give you a biography on Bevo Francis and tell you all about the Waterloo Wonders. But those Hawks players ... not so much. I'm sure Pettit was a fine player, but not exactly a household name. And quite sure none of you knew who was on that team without looking either. Except maybe Civ, who I will not say is old, but will say he is very experienced...

My point is, that was their toughest competition for years for a title. Not exactly the 2017 Golden State Warriors they were facing.

Will never be impressed by the title argument when discussing the possible GOAT.

TFIR, you ever start a computerized fantasy league for basketball like you used to for baseball and if I need a center I will draft Hakeem Olajuwon over Russell any day. Let alone some of the other great big men.

Now Hal Greer, there is a blast from the past. That name I know. I used to drive down the boulevard named after him in Huntington, WV daily. (he was from there)

Just passed away recently.

Needless to say, losing this game at home very well could signal the end of this playoff run.

How ‘bout them Cavs!

Ended up being a great sports day in Cleveland!!!!

Lebron James...out of words

Tom Withers @twithersAP
12 minutes ago
LeBron is taking a team to Finals that traded its second-best player last summer, overhauled its roster in February, endured injuries and didn’t have its other All-Star in Game 7. Perhaps his finest achievement.

.

Me personally, a few years ago when he took the Warriors to 6 games with Love out and Kyrie's knee so bad he was a shell of himself was better. This comes close though.

This is up there - but certainly would have been higher if Boston had that Kyrie guy playing. Still amazing.

Good stuff from Pluto

Cleveland Cavaliers: Taking another look at Kyrie Irving trade -- Terry Pluto

By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer terrypluto2003@yahoo.com
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Kyrie Irving won the Kyrie Irving trade.

He didn't want to play in the long shadow of LeBron James. As he told Cavs owner Dan Gilbert, he wanted to be "the focal point" of a franchise.

He became that in Boston, which is not just any franchise. The Celtics are iconic. Irving instantly became the "face of the franchise" that is legendary.

After three trips to the NBA Finals and one title, there is little doubt Irving enjoyed winning.

But he wanted more. He wanted to be mentioned along with Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Stephen Curry, James and other NBA superstars.

Would Irving have needed knee surgery had he remained with the Cavaliers?

We'll never know.

But there was something wrong with Irving's knee last summer when he demanded the Cavs trade him. According to a report by Cleveland.com's Joe Vardon, Irving threatened the Cavs with having knee surgery if they didn't trade him.

At first, it seemed like a power play.

But then Irving had not one but two surgeries this spring. They were done on the same knee he fractured in the 2015 NBA Finals.

The first surgery was to remove a wire in the knee. A second was to remove some screws in the knee that became infected.

His last game was on March 11.

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The Celtics are optimistic about their All-Star guard making a full recovery. But there has to be some concern about a player having three procedures on the same knee since 2015.

WHAT IF?

I'm going to assume Irving's knee would have had similar problems if he'd remained with the Cavs. That seems fair, given no traumatic injury such as a fall led to his current problems.

Would the Cavs have made a fourth consecutive trip to the NBA Finals without Irving -- or the players who came in later trades?

Let's think about it:

1. The Cavs originally received Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic and a draft pick that will be No. 8 in next month's 2018 NBA Draft.

2. Only Zizic and the pick remain with the Cavs. I like Zizic, the 6-foot-10 center, a long-term prospect. He scored 119 points in 214 minutes, shooting 73 percent from the field. He has a lot of savvy inside moves and is only 21.

3. If you connect all the deals made later, rookie general manager Koby Altman pulled off some trades that possibly saved the season and set up the climb to the 2018 NBA Finals.

4. Thomas was used as part of a trade to bring Larry Nance Jr. and Jordan Clarkson to the Cavs. Both are under contract for next season, which also is important.

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5. Thomas had hip surgery and there is a question mark about his future. He is a free agent.

6. Nance has had some very productive moments in the postseason. Clarkson was very good in the regular season, but has struggled in the playoffs.

7. The Cavs shipped Crowder and Derrick Rose to Utah. As part of the same deal, they sent Iman Shumpert to Sacracmento.

8. Those moves netted George Hill and Rodney Hood.

9. Hood has been a major disappointment. He seems lost with the Cavs and unhappy. He is a restricted free agent. Not sure if he will be back next season.

10. Hill is a veteran point guard. He fits in well with James. He is under contract for next season.

WHERE THE CAVS STAND

1. If the Cavs had kept Irving, they would not have him in the postseason.

2. If they kept Thomas, he also would not have played.

3. If Irving comes back strong, Boston made a good deal. But that knee has to be a concern.

4. Hill has been a key player for the Cavs in the postseason. Nance can rebound, defend and bring energy off the bench. They helped the Cavs reach The Finals.

5. Without all of these trades, it's likely another Eastern team besides the Cavs would have reached The Finals.

6. Dan Gilbert also deserves credit for adding about $10 million in luxury tax with those mid-season deals. They will pay about $50 million in tax and have a total payroll of $190 million -- second highest in NBA history according to ESPN's Brian Windhorst.


7. Once again, Gilbert made a major investment to help the Cavs and LeBron James return to The Finals.

8. James responded with perhaps the most epic postseason performance in his 15-year career. As time passed, he began to gain faith in his new teammates.

IN THE BACKGROUND

When Gilbert decided not to extend the contract of popular general manager David Griffin, the owner first tried to hire Chauncey Billups. The former Piston guard and current ESPN analyst turned down the job.

Griffin's assistant was Altman, who was running the team while Gilbert was trying to coax Billups into taking the job.

Finally, the owner gave it to Altman -- who was under tremendous pressure. At the age of 35, he was actually No. 3 in the front office -- behind Griffin and top assistant Trent Redden.

Redden left the Cavs with Griffin and now works for the Clippers.

Altman had to find a deal for Irving -- who made it harder by waiting until after the draft.

Then he had to make more trades when Thomas and Crowder failed to blend in with the team. Some of the blame for that has to fall to the front office.

But then so does some of the credit for the next wave of trades.

As Altman correctly said, "We were knocking on death's door" before his mid-season trades.


This is not to say Altman made great deals. But it is to say Irving's knee injury is a reality. And Hill and Nance have helped in the postseason.

The No. 8 pick and Zizic could pay off in the future.

Altman has a young front office as he's aided by Brock Aller, Jon Nichols and Mike Gansey.

These men still have to prove they can use the draft pick wisely, and they could face a huge challenge if James leaves.

But in the short term, their dealing helped the Cavs reach the NBA Finals.

Nice interview on Jeff Green - as always lots about Lebron:

Recently, Cleveland Cavaliers forward Jeff Green was a guest on The HoopsHype Podcast and he had a wide-ranging conversation with Alex Kennedy.

In January 2012, you needed open-heart surgery because you had an enlargement of the valve to your aorta. What was it like going through that and did you fear your NBA days were over?

Jeff Green: Oh, I thought they were over. I didn’t fear it, I just assumed [my playing days were done] when I first heard that I had to have the surgery. In my head, it was done. I was thinking about how I was going to cope with that and what my next move was going to be. Then I had the interview with my surgeon, Dr. Lars Svensson, a month before the surgery and he told me that I would be allowed to continue playing without any problems. That eased my mind, but I still had a lot of doubt about my career when I was told I had to have the surgery.

What was it like going through the physical therapy after the open-heart surgery? Because not only were just trying to feel better day-to-day, you were also trying to get back into NBA shape.

JG: It was very humbling. Very, very humbling. During rehab, I was always among older folks who’d had multiple heart surgeries and who were 50 years old and up. I was by far the youngest in my rehab class, but the experience definitely humbled me, made me appreciate life more and it helped me make sure that I value each day because I went through a life-threatening surgery. My life changed in a matter of seconds. It definitely humbled me, and made value and appreciate life way more.

Your story is inspiring. Anyone who doesn’t know the details should look it up. Now, I want to talk about this season. When you decided to go to Cleveland, did you know there would be this much media coverage and did you expect the team to be under the microscope so much? Part of it is being on a contender, but a big part of it is playing alongside LeBron James, who generates so many headlines.

JG: From the outside looking in, in previous years before I got here, I would always see that the spotlight was constantly on LeBron and his team. But I never knew how fabricated [the stories] were. Like, every day, they try to figure out a story so that they can talk about the Cleveland Cavaliers and No. 23. When I got here, I didn’t know how much coverage there would be and how much we’d be in the spotlight. But after a couple weeks, it was getting pretty ridiculous because there were stories that were being made up about what was going on, what was happening. There were a lot of stories put out there that were false. When you’re playing with one of the best players to ever play this game – the best player to ever play this game – that comes with the territory. I’m starting to realize that. And there’s nothing you can do about it. You just have to accept what they put out there and know in-house what the truth is and how to deal with it as a team. It gets to a point where you can’t believe everything you hear. As a team, we’ve learned to cope with that and deal with that throughout the year.

When you get out on the court with LeBron, he’s certainly worth the media attention and scrutiny. What has it been like playing with him and how has he helped your game?

JG: For sure. He definitely makes everything easier for everybody. He makes the game so much easier with his vision, the way he plays, his basketball IQ and the way he goes about his work every day. He works extremely hard to take care of his body and make sure he can put us in position to win our games. He gets a lot of scrutiny for what he doesn’t do, but a lot of people don’t see everything he does do behind the scenes. I’ve seen it firsthand. I’ve witnessed the incredible stuff he does. He’s having an amazing year and it seems like every day, he’s reaching another historic milestone. You’re sitting back like, “Man, he really did that? He’s the only player to do this?” It’s been amazing to watch and it’s been amazing to be a part of it.

How long do you think LeBron can continue playing? Iman Shumpert did an interview a while back talking about LeBron’s workout regime, icing, diet and overall dedication to keeping his body in peak shape. I believe Iman said he could play another 10 years. Given what you’ve seen and the fact that he’s never had a major injury, how long do you think he can play and perform at this level?



JG: As long as he wants. He’s a guy who really puts his money into his body and takes care of his body. He does whatever is necessary to make sure he’s able to go out every night and give it his all. The way he’s going, I think it’ll be up to him. He’ll decide when he wants to shut it out, given how much work he puts into his body. I think that’s a question you have to ask him. How many years does he want to play? I think it’ll be totally up to him. If you look at his game, he’s 15 years in and he’s finishing above the rim, he’s one of the biggest guys on the court, he hasn’t missed many games. I mean, he’s been everything for us this year. How many years is he going to play? You’d have to ask him [how many years he wants to play].

At the trade deadline, Cleveland dealt six players. When that’s all going down, that has to be kind of scary. Were you looking over your shoulder and wondering if you were next?

JG: I mean, yeah, of course. Nobody wants to be traded. I’ve been traded before, right at the deadline – like at 2:59! It’s not an easy thing to wait and see [if you’ll be traded], but this is a business and things happen. It’s out of your control and teams are going to do what’s necessary for them as they try to better their team. It’s definitely an uneasy feeling, when you’re sitting there and waiting. We brought in four new guys that have helped us in what we’re trying to accomplish.

I had never seen anything like that [trade deadline] because it all happened so quick. Like, it was one after another after another after another. And this was over the course of, like, 15 minutes. You’re following along and you’re like, “Oh, we did that? And that?! And that?!” It was crazy and I’ve never seen anything like it. It was a weird feeling because we lost so many good guys that I was close with. But it’s a business. It’s unfortunate that we weren’t able to get it together [with that group]. It was definitely a shock. We had a road trip that day and going to the plane, it was like, “Wow. We just did that. Six guys are gone.” It’s something you can’t prepare for.

I’m not going to ask you about your thoughts on LeBron’s free agency because I’m sure you get asked about it a lot – whether it’s from fans you run into, people in your life, other media members. What I do want to know is how often does it come up and how annoying is it?

JG: I actually don’t get asked about it much, because I’m not going to talk about it even if I am asked. I mean, he’s a grown man and people can ask him, but I’m pretty sure he’s going to give you a [non-answer] that you don’t want to hear. But it does come up. It’s been coming up since day one of this season and I’m sure people will continue talking about it, writing articles and videos about it and sharing their opinion on what’s going to happen. It’s something you can’t control. But ultimately, he’s going to do what’s best for him and what’s best for his family. He’s a grown man and I think he has a right to do that. You can’t judge a man by what he wants to do. When that time comes, he’s going to make a decision and whether people like it or not, they have to live with it.

For the first year of your NBA career, you played for the Seattle SuperSonics. What was your experience like there and could you eventually see an NBA franchise being back in Seattle?

JG: I honestly hope that city gets an NBA franchise, and I hope it’s soon. That was an amazing city. They had everything you could ask for – amazing food, people and views, but especially great fan support. I mean, you can see it with the Seattle Seahawks and Seattle Mariners. They love their sports. That city deserves an NBA team. And I think they will get one. I just hope it’s during my NBA career so that I can go back and see the city some more and just enjoy it because it’s a great city. I thought it was sad when the team had to leave; I wanted to stay in that city and be a part of that city for a long time.

You were part of the Thunder’s core when they had Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, James Harden and Serge Ibaka. You guys were a close group that had excellent chemistry. I remember you guys did everything together off the court. What was that time in your career like, playing with such a close-knit team?

JG: It was fun to be a part of. For me, you come in with somebody who is from where you are from in Kevin Durant — both of us are from [Prince George’s] county. That’s family. You’re more comfortable dealing with what you have to deal with because you have someone you can talk to who is your age. He comes from where you come from. The, the next year, we draft Russell Westbrook and then you have Serge Ibaka there. And then the next year, we draft James Harden. We had an incredible bond and we still have an incredible bond to this day that’s tight. Russell came to my wedding this past year. Other guys couldn’t because of things they had to do, but that doesn’t change the fact that we’re still friends to this day and it’s a friendship and a bond that won’t be broken. That’s how you develop close friends off the court.

You have averaged double-figures in scoring in 9 of your 10 NBA seasons. Considering everything you’ve gone through and how productive you’ve been, do you consider yourself underrated?

JG: Honestly? Okay, I’m going to give you the honest answer. I do this, I play this game, because I love it. I play with joy. To sit here and say, “I’m underrated, I should be talked about and blah blah blah.” Nah. I couldn’t care less about what people have to say about my career and what I’ve done in the NBA. They may say, “Oh, Jeff wasn’t this at this point in his career,” but I don’t care. I do this because I love this game. Whether I have 2 points or I have 40 points, I’ve done great things in my career, I’m happy playing this game and I’ve enjoyed every up and down throughout my time with this game. I’ve enjoyed everything that his game has given me.

I’m proud of [what I’ve done]. Not everybody can be LeBron James. Not everybody can be the top player. You have to play your position, play your role, and do what you can in the position you’re asked to be in. I feel like I’ve done a great job of that. I live with it and I’m happy with it. It doesn’t make or break who I am. Off the court, I’m still the same family-first guy who loves his wife, loves his daughter. I’m just happy. I don’t live caring about whether I’m underrated or overrated. That doesn’t do anything for me. At the end of the day, I’ve played 10 years in this league and a lot of guys don’t get to see 10 years, so I’m thankful for that. I’m thankful for a lot of things and every day, I just go into the gym, work hard and give it all I got. Then, when we have a game, I go out and give it all I got and I live with the results. I can live with everything I’ve gone through, I smile every day and I have fun doing this. That’s the honest truth. I can’t put it any other way.

When did you get to that point, where you could say, “Okay, I’m going to play my role and have my career and it’s okay that not everybody can be a superstar like LeBron.” When you’re younger, I think every player wants to be star and views that as the priority. When did you get to the point where reached that mindset and could be happy with what you’ve accomplished rather than wanting more?

JG: This year (laughs). Honestly. You go through a lot of things [in your head] and think of what you could’ve done better and how certain things played out. And we’re so accessible these days so you do hear people criticize you and ask, “Why didn’t Jeff Green do this,” or, “Why didn’t Jeff Green do that?” You hear it every day. When you’re young, you try to block it out, but it’s hard because you want to prove everybody wrong. It’s tough. It takes a while to accept that [you should be happy that] you’re in the NBA, you’re still playing meaningful minutes, you’re on a great team. That should be enough. It’s everything I could’ve asked for.

Everybody has a different path. God has a plan for your life and everybody’s is different. It’s taken a while – obviously (laughs) – for me to accept that this is my route, this is my path. But I accept it now and I will do whatever it takes to help this team win a championship. If that path is just going out there in the playoffs and just playing defense, that’s what I’ll do. I’m happy with that. But it has taken a long time to accept that and not go out there trying to prove people wrong and not getting down on myself if I don’t get the results that I want. Everybody goes through it. It’s just taken me a while to accept it and move on and be happy with everything. But at this point, I can honestly say I’ve accepted it. But I’m still working hard because I can obviously still get better. That’s not going to change. But I’ve accepted where I’m at and I’m happy with my career. And that’s the first step to appreciating your career, in my mind. My goal was to make it to the NBA and I did that. And then I did a lot of good things, and I’m proud of myself. I’m happy, man. I’m happy.

Not very old Civ remembers watching the Royals in the Arena as a visiting home team; Lakers came to town for a full house as they won some record=breaking game.
Then came the Original Cavs with a roster including
Centers Walter Wesley, Luther Rackley and the immoral Gary Suiter
Forward McCoy McLemore, Dave Sorenson, Lenny Chappell [for about a week], Bingo Smith
Guards Bobby Lewis, Johnny Warren, Jumpy Joe Cooke, after a couple weeks Bobby Washington, 1st draft choice John Johnson, Johnny Egan for a week or two
Coached by Bill Fitch, formerly head coach of Univ of Minnesota, who only knew Big Ten players therefore drafted Iowa's Johnson, OSU's Sorenson, Indiana's Cooke. After a while he picked up Larry Mikan, son of the great George.
Started out 0-15. Won a game and lost 12 more. And this with a schedule that featured a dozen games each against fellow expansion teams Buffalo Braves [later San Diego later LA Clippers] and Portland Trailblazers.

At the time the Cavs won their first game, LeBron was not quite 14 years unborn.